Defining “clean beauty” and an entrepreneurial story of how burnout nearly took her life. Transcript of the interview with Sasha Plavsic, Founder of ILIA Beauty for The Failure Factor Podcast.

Megan Bruneau: Sasha, welcome to the show.

Sasha Plavsic: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Megan Bruneau: Thank you for being here. It has been almost two years since we serendipitously met on Whistler Mountain hiking and had a lovely conversation and then realized, partway through, “Oh my gosh, I think you would be somebody that I would love to get the contact information of, because one day I would like to have you on my podcast.”

Sasha Plavsic: And here we are.

Megan Bruneau: Here we are. Exactly. There were a lot of things that happened in between, but here we are. It is so wonderful to have you here. And you are the founder of ILIA Beauty, which has just had rocket ship success, although I’m sure it didn’t start that way. Tell our audience who you are, where you’re from, and about what ILIA Beauty is.

Sasha’s Background and Upbringing

Sasha Plavsic: Who am I? I’m somebody that’s always learning about myself. No, I am the founder of ILIA. My name is Sasha, and I started everything in my early life in Vancouver, Canada, which is where I’m living again. There’s a peekaboo of the trees behind me right now. But I grew up in Western Canada.

I really did grow up in nature. I grew up in a cove where there were 20 homes. There was only one bus in and out of there a day. It was really, when I look back on that and think about the world today and the world in the 80s, and the families that we had around us there, it was a Stand by Me kind of childhood, where you go and disappear in the woods, you build forts, you do some bad things that get you in trouble, and you break bones and come home with a broken bone. There was a lot of that.

I think that helped form part of who I am today. And I definitely did not have helicopter parents, which I think was also probably a good thing in the long run. So, I would say I’m a Canadian girl in many ways, but my father was from Europe. My mother’s parents were from Europe, so I had a very Eastern European upbringing.

I spent a lot of time traveling with my family and then myself, moving to London to study and New York for work. Eventually, I was in Southern California, and I was addicted to traveling. The different jobs that I had were in branding and graphic design, so that was my background. I would save money from those jobs and then just take off and go to South America or go to Asia. And yeah, I would say probably in some ways a gypsy, a little bit of a gypsy at heart, if you would ask who I am.

So that’s a bit of who I am.

The Turning Point: Rock Bottom and a New Beginning

Megan Bruneau: And about ILIA Beauty?

Sasha Plavsic: I know that’s such a big question. I feel like I could talk for 24 hours. Growing up, I had really bad skin, so I suffered from a lot of acne and continuous breakouts. It’s definitely a very hard thing to go through for anybody and can make you feel very vulnerable. So what happened? I had just turned 30.

I was living in California and I went through a breakup and took a job. I was at Urban Decay Cosmetics, and I was helping with a rebrand. They offered me a position, but I wanted to go home. I think I’d been away for about ten years and I felt like reconnecting with the world and my family.

So I moved into a studio suite next to my parents at their house, next to the garage. And really, I also was at rock bottom at that point.

Megan Bruneau: This is the same place you grew up?

Sasha Plavsic: Same place I grew up. This little suite, actually, my Nana used to live in, who was from Yugoslavia. And she was a very tough woman who went through a couple of World Wars, so I feel like I had a bit of her energy in there. And I think I was just very… when you have nothing and you’re really at a bottom point, you can create anything.

Because you’re already in such a rock bottom situation, it’s like, “Well, what does it matter?” And it becomes maybe even a little less intimidating. Love also helps, too. And I definitely had the love of my folks. So, I took a day job and just started thinking about what I wanted to do, and that is what led to exploring and being curious about my skin.

When I came home, my mom was really concerned about my skin, and she never had gone through it, so it was hard to understand. But she said, “I need you to start looking at your products, what you’re putting on your skin.” So I did, and that’s really where I would say there was the first moment of, “Is this good for my skin? Is this bad for my skin?” And the more I looked into many of the products I was using, I realized a lot of the elements were not necessarily benefiting my skin. They were actually making it worse.

Megan Bruneau: What year was this, Sasha, just so we understand the timeline?

Sasha Plavsic: This was in 2009.

A Family History of Health Consciousness

Megan Bruneau: 2009. Okay, so you are in California. You get offered this job with Urban Decay. You go through this breakup, this watershed moment. You decide, “I need to get home and connect with my roots,” go home, move into the studio next to your parents’ house where your Nana had lived, so you harness her energy. You have that, as I like to say, “failure factor” moment where you’re like, “I’m rock bottom, I can do anything.” And alongside that, you are dealing with your skin, understanding it was incredibly challenging, but that was the moment where your mom was concerned. So how did she have that awareness in 2009? What was her background?

Sasha Plavsic: So she had a lot of insight because when my brother was born, I was four. So this would have been in the early 80s. And he became very ill around three, four, or five months, where every familiar problem—from eczema to asthma to allergies—was so prevalent he more or less needed to live in the hospital.

Megan Bruneau: Oh my gosh.

Sasha Plavsic: I think for her it was a real wake-up moment because she’d sleep on the floor of his room and make sure he was breathing. And those are things you don’t know when you’re a child. But I remember the shift in the home, and I remember the curtains disappearing and the rugs being pulled up and the Kraft cheese slices being thrown out—certain things that were not serving us in the home in order to ensure that there was a 360-degree approach, which was pretty innovative back then, to help him thrive.

And that was constant because a lot of those things will stick around for kids until they hit puberty. So she really became very conscious of food and diet and started an organic food co-op in a garage with a few other women, where they would all jump in the back of the station wagons—you know, sit in the back with the window that rolled down—and they’d be unloading the vegetables and divvying everything up.

She just became very aware, very early on in the trend of health and wellness, and recognized that environment and diet are a contributing factor to your health, not just a problem to be fixed with drugs. So she was actually looking at a lot of cleaning products at the time, in the early aughts, and made some shifts there.

And then she started questioning what was in the beauty products. She did that because everybody’s body chemistry is different. And it’s interesting, even in health and wellness, people say, “Oh, if you take this, if you take that,” but if you don’t do your blood work, how would you know?

For example, with vitamin D, a lot of people do need to take it. But some people need to take more, and some people can’t absorb it, and then you can get toxic levels. So having your blood work done I think is really important. And her blood work showed that she had a lot of metals in her body. She stopped using some lipsticks and was doing some chelation therapy to get the metals out. And then it went away. And when she was using these lipsticks often, every day, they would come back. The levels would increase. So she started realizing that some of her products were a contributing factor to that. It was a combination of a few things, but that was one where she really recognized it was contributing.

Megan Bruneau: Yeah, she had that experience personally, and she suggested it to you. And then it sounds like you did have a look and were like, “This is interesting. What’s in my products here?”

Sasha Plavsic: What’s in my products? I think now there are so many apps out there, and it’s so far ahead of where it was in 2009. People can get a bit crazy about it. And I really encourage people, don’t get crazy about it. Because, without going into too much detail, you could think something’s better for you, but if it’s made in a lab where they don’t have the right processes in place, or maybe they’re not actually releasing all the information, you may not be seeing the full ingredient list. It’s really hard to know what to trust. But ultimately, I would say some of the bigger brands that are saying certain things, they have to legally stand by that, even if they’re more natural or clean-based. So I think it’s just something to think about when you are shopping more thoughtfully for products.

Finding a Gap in the Market

Megan Bruneau: You questioned what’s in the products, realized maybe there’s some stuff in here that I don’t want to put on my skin. How did that then turn into a business for you?

Sasha Plavsic: That’s a big question. I would say there were a few things. I was like, “Okay, let me see if I can find products that I do want to put on my skin.” And I felt like there were some brands out there at the time. There was more luxury—some of the big luxury brand names that we know that had makeup and skincare lines. There was more prestige that was very trendy at the time and involved heavier makeup application.

And then there was more natural, which you would find in Whole Foods or certain department stores. I felt like there was nothing in between that was more niche. If I want to make a real reference for those that are older, you remember there was Barneys in New York, and then they had Barneys Co-op. The co-op floor was always a discovery section with really cool upcoming brands that were more niche and boutique, and I felt like there was nothing boutique or bespoke in the beauty space. As a consumer, I was looking for a brand like that, and in 2009, there wasn’t really one that I could relate to.

So I felt like there was a gap. And the second thing, I felt like the brands were not very honest with their marketing, or if they were, they were so natural that the products didn’t work. So I was looking for this in-between space between the very natural and the more prestige luxury. And something that was… I mean, the word transparent is maybe overused today, but I wanted it to be more transparent and thoughtful about what we were doing and really ensure that was our mission. I came out and said, “I want to disrupt the beauty industry and make products that people trust, and I want to make your skin look and feel alive. I want to protect it, revive it, and make it look and feel alive.” And that today is still really what our mission is.

Developing the First Clean Beauty Products

Megan Bruneau: So what was the first product or what were the first products you came up with, and how did you do that?

Sasha Plavsic: Well, I definitely started with an easier one, which a lot of brands do if you think of NARS or Bobbi Brown. We started with lip. I kind of looked to some of those and thought, “How do people start?” And lip is a really good entry point for a makeup brand, or it was maybe more back then, because it’s color. It’s fun. You can buy more than one. It’s easy. It’s covetable in some ways.

Megan Bruneau: People are reapplying it throughout the day, taking it in their purse.

Sasha Plavsic: Yeah. So I looked at my very beautiful, full-coverage lipsticks, and then I had my chapsticks, a lot of them that I had from Europe. There was one called Labello that would leave a very beautiful tint.

Megan Bruneau: I remember Labello. Yes.

Sasha Plavsic: They had a cherry tinted one, and I felt like I wanted something in between the two. So I thought, what if I could make a lipstick/balm that you could build in coverage? And that was packaged in a beautiful case with recycled aluminum and had a good ethos, but was made with organic and, I guess at the time, “clean” ingredients.

But there wasn’t a word for it. And I wondered, “How could I do that?” So that was really the brief that was set. And it took two years. I went through three manufacturers. A lot of them told me they couldn’t do it. There were no formulas out there. Even until about five years ago, many of the labs wouldn’t have the formula.

We do most of our formulas from scratch. Now, you could go and get presentations, and brands can just pick and choose clean formulas. But back then, it was really having to convince the labs to try and do something they hadn’t done before.

The Two-Year Hustle

Megan Bruneau: And were you still working your full-time job while you were doing this? Was this the job you had taken in the Vancouver area?

Sasha Plavsic: Yes. So I worked for an aromatherapy company—I think they still have a few locations in the U.S.—called Saje.

Megan Bruneau: Oh yeah, I remember Saje. I lived in Vancouver for a while, so yes.

Sasha Plavsic: I did a rebrand for them. The store designer for all the Aritzia stores—I introduced them to her—and we revived the packaging in some ways, moving away from printed labels. So I was doing that, and I was working on this at night. I’d go to work and then come home and work from about 8 p.m. till 2 in the morning on this pilot project that was very loose and definitely not serious at the time.

Megan Bruneau: And what kept you persistent while you were hearing from the labs, “No, we don’t formulate in that way. We don’t have anything for you. We’re not even going to do this”? How did you keep going for two years to find the right product?

Sasha Plavsic: I think being young and naive is a really good combination. I felt safe in failing because I was more or less living rent-free, saving a bit of money to put towards this idea. It was started with a $25,000 line of credit and two credit cards. So it’s different today, I think.

But to me, that was a lot at the time. And if it failed, I knew that I could fall back on something else. I think that gave me creative freedom. There was no timeline on it either. So the creative freedom to explore and get the formula to where I wanted it to be took about two years from start to finish.

And then the plan I put together… it’s funny, I looked at the notes. I had 10,000 units I wanted to move through in X number of months. I targeted certain key retailers around the world and a lot of more niche boutique shops and lifestyle stores, and would just walk in. I think I believed in the product so much that a lot of these people believed in it and took a risk on me and brought it in.

Megan Bruneau: How did you know when you’d come up with the right formula?

Sasha Plavsic: I’d say it’s still the same today: it’s a feeling. Some will get 90% of the way there. Some may get… I would say it has to be between 85 and 100%. Maybe some are 80%. And then you have to figure out the give-and-takes on how you are getting to a certain payoff, a certain tone, performance, look, and feel.

But it had to feel really good. And I think one of the things that ILIA prides itself on is we’re not a brand known for its founder. I’m more like the lady behind the curtain. We’re not a brand that’s very much even known for its brand name. I would say we’re known for our products and the quality of our products, and people trust our products. And that’s what I was trying to do.

Evolving the “Clean” Philosophy

Megan Bruneau: Not everybody can say that, so that’s so impressive, Sasha. Thank you. So for you then, you finally formulated this product, and I imagine more thereafter. When did you then get into skin and eye, and what did that progression look like, just at a high level?

Sasha Plavsic: Yeah, slow. Because there weren’t any investors for the first seven or eight years. We launched in 2011. I think we took our first investment at the end of 2018, because I hadn’t had the second baby yet. It was a bootstrapped mentality.

I was in three garages. We launched our Multi-Stick, I think that was in 2012. I slowly built in some complexion. At the time, “clean” did not exist. It was “green” and “natural,” and I was always kind of sitting in the corner with a dunce cap because people would call out and say, “Well, you’re not totally natural and you’re not all synthetic.”

And I said, “I know, but I can’t be totally natural because this product isn’t going to work properly.” And I think in the beginning, some products I released, in my eyes, did not perform the way I wanted them to because I was trying to make them, quote-unquote, too natural. So there came a moment a few years later, maybe in 2013, where I started to think, okay, some of these are definitely a hybrid of the natural and the synthetic, but those ones work the best.

And technically, I would consider them to be pretty safe for the skin and the body. And some of them that were more natural were not safe for the skin, because natural ingredients can be toxic, too. I mean, a lot of plants out there are poison. So it’s about what makes sense. Ultimately, the way that we look at formulating, which is how I would say we look at “clean,” is we try to bring the best of natural and the best of synthetic together and create a base that is very simple and brings harmony and balance to the skin in some way, whether you need hydration or it’s more balancing for the oils. And then from there, we look to add ingredients that will benefit. Is it firming? Is it plumping? Is it smoothing? Is it blurring? And that’s kind of how the product ideation comes into play.

Defining “Clean Beauty”

Megan Bruneau: What is the definition of clean beauty? What’s the difference between natural, clean, and synthetic?

Sasha Plavsic: I would say clean beauty, in one word, is “thoughtful” beauty. There’s a thoughtfulness that’s really going into the ingredients. It’s generally considered to be safer for the body and the planet as a whole. And from a chemical standpoint, it’s not necessarily natural. I think people think “clean” is “natural.” It’s not. It actually could be all synthetic, but those synthetics are carefully selected to bring a balance or harmony to the skin in a way that people can trust it won’t aggravate the skin. At least that’s really how… we’re such a skin-centric brand. That’s actually one of our taglines: Skin-Centric Beauty. So we really look at that as a whole. And I think for “clean,” a lot of people are looking to create products that people trust and that are not going to aggravate the skin.

Gaining Traction and the Sephora Partnership

Megan Bruneau: Great, thank you. I realize it might be helpful to ask that question because I was like, “I don’t actually even think I know the definition of clean beauty.” Okay, so then at what point did you get traction and think, “Oh, this is really taking off,” and what did that look like?

Sasha Plavsic: Oh, that was a long time. I would say there were little moments. In 2012, I think we got into Colette in Paris, which was a major lifestyle store in the world to have your eyes on. And from there, we launched with Net-A-Porter, which was a big e-retailer at that time. They were launching beauty, and we were one of the first six brands.

So, were they moments for the business that drove a lot of volume? At that time, maybe. But I would say it was even more so the visibility of the brand that we were building. Sephora did call me a year after I launched, in 2012, and said that they were very interested. And I remember I said, “I don’t have any money, and I think to work with you, I’d need to be really prepared in that area, and I’m not.”

So we waited five years together. And then it was in 2016, 2017 that we started with just two SKUs. And that, to me, is ultimately when things started to get more serious. Not just because Sephora took it—which, by the way, is one of the reasons we are where we are, because they’ve been an amazing partner and they are brand builders, and many of the brands that have become big there, it’s because of that partnership with them. But I would say also because of the timing. People were not ready for the category when I started. So I think if we had gone out too soon and too fast, there wasn’t enough support around it as a whole.

When I went to meet with them in 2015, we actually sat down and they said, “We’re going to create this category called Clean at Sephora, and we would like you to help us choose the ingredients for the makeup area.” So I worked with them to develop the tiers. There are actually three tiers—they only made it to the second one—but there were three tiers as a whole that defined a clean makeup product. And then they launched it unanimously. They did it with skincare, then hair, then makeup. And the power of a brand like Sephora getting behind a category and then bringing these brands into this category is, in my eyes, what helped build the category, outside of other great boutique retailers like Credo. But there was definitely a movement that started around that time, and it really started to build momentum, not just for myself but for many other brands.

Trusting Your Gut

Megan Bruneau: It sounds like it really took off and the timing was right. I was thinking, as you were sharing, when you said, “You know what, I don’t have any money,” when they reached out initially in 2012. What stopped you from being like, “Wow, amazing opportunity. I’ve got to go raise a bunch of capital. Let’s get investors. Let’s figure this out. We’re going to do this,” and jump at this chance?

Sasha Plavsic: I hate to say something so woo-woo, but instinct. I think it was instinct. A lot of the decisions that I’ve made in my life are based on that little voice in your head or feeling inside your stomach. And I think a lot of people can access that. It’s amazing what we do to cover it up and not listen to it. It’s like when you’re doing multiple choice, you wonder, “Well, was it the first thought, or is it this one instead?” It’s kind of the same situation in life. And I would say the more we can get in touch with that… that’s definitely, for me personally, one of my strengths. And even in hiring people and things like that, that has served me really well.

How to Connect with Intuition

Megan Bruneau: I am fully on board with that, Sasha. And I think, unfortunately, too often people are told not to listen to that, or women are told that’s just us being emotional, or we’re all just too busy to actually tap into it. So for you, how do you get in touch with your intuition or make sure that you’re honoring that part of you?

Sasha Plavsic: If things are too busy, too crazy, it’s harder to listen to, especially in the earlier days. As you get older, you know yourself more. I think about that with my girls. I have one that’s ten and, oh my God, she’s about to be a teenager. And I think, “Oh, she just doesn’t know herself.” And there are all these things coming up. But as you get older, you know yourself more and you learn to trust yourself more. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to make mistakes. I think people really need to be okay with making mistakes.

So, in regards to intuition, you have to be more clear in your mind. What does that look like for someone? Is it that they need to exercise and not drink, which is definitely trending more than it was 15 years ago? Go to sleep on time. Get centered. Take a walk. Shutting out the noise. I think whatever that looks like for you is important in order to get in touch with your intuition. And then if you’re not in touch with your intuition, some people go away. Maybe they do a retreat, maybe they go hiking in the mountains.

Megan Bruneau: I was going to say, you know, we know you live that because we met hiking and you didn’t have to be doing any of this at that time. And you were by yourself, which is also beautiful.

Sasha Plavsic: Yeah. I think just connecting with whatever makes you feel connected to yourself. As an entrepreneur, as a person, as a human, doubt and fear are big. Rejection and judgment are big. Our brains can really be our best friend or our worst enemy. And how to make peace with that is an important part of the journey for anybody, I think, living the life they want to live.

Building Resilience and a Strong Work Ethic

Megan Bruneau: Absolutely. And you mentioned when we first started what a sort of free-range childhood you had, where you were able to go out and explore and get dirty. Do you attribute any of your exploratory personality as an adult—who’s able to listen to your intuition and try new things and be open to failure—to any of those foundations that were laid as a kid?

Sasha Plavsic: I think so. I don’t know if I’ve told this part of the story, but my dad, he was older when he had me. We were the second set of kids, and he did go through World War II. He was born in 1930. And some of the stuff that happened during that was so intense. There was definitely that lived in him, I think, when we were growing up, which you’re not really aware of when you’re younger. And there’s a survivor mentality that comes with that, especially for an immigrant who defected from his country. And I think there are a lot of people that have done that and are still doing that. But the survivor mentality… yeah, I remember he would say, “You can do anything you want to do, but you have to work really hard. Half of it’s talent, the other half is really hard work.”

So I think there was definitely… I used to be a competitive swimmer. I wasn’t very good, to be honest. But I think the discipline of getting up and being on that deck at 5:05 in the morning and practicing… oh, God, how many practices did we do, like nine practices a week? I think you develop a bond with people. You have to endure some of that, and there’s a consistency there, I would say, that maybe trained me to persevere. And there’s time to think, you know, when you’re in that type of a sport, too. So there were probably certain facets from my life—of being in nature and then being in a competitive environment—that, honestly, I had to recover from. A lot of my friends went to universities in the U.S., and my dad’s like, “You just need to do one more year.” We were on the national development team. And he’s like, “And then you can…” and I remember, I think just to spite him, I quit.

Learning from Not Being “The Best”

Megan Bruneau: Yeah, totally. Sounds like at that point you were ready for some rebellion. It’s interesting when you share about not being very good—although clearly, you were quite good to continue on for that long. But it’s helpful to not be perfect or excellent at everything, because then you get practice with not being the best.

And for those always used to being the best, we fear being new at something or doing something that we’re not great at. So it sounds like you are very comfortable with being in the beginning stages of things, trying new things, and not being the best person in the room. And that’s certainly a skill.

Sasha Plavsic: Yeah, that’s a learned skill. I mean, it was very hard because I used to be good at swimming, and then… and he was an Olympic swimmer. I mean, that’s a typical childhood story that a lot of people can tell. And I would say I developed later, too. I was like this beanpole and just very behind physically, and you need some strength.

I felt bad about myself, I think. And you know, people can always feel that. You can feel it in a relationship. It’s like, even with my daughter, she’s like, “Oh, this person’s going to think this of me or that of me.” And I’m like, it’s only how you think about that. If somebody thinks that about you, it’s how you think about that for yourself. And then it doesn’t matter what they think. Maybe something they’re thinking can be helpful to you, or if it’s not, you just… it’s just what you think about yourself.

Megan Bruneau: Exactly. Yes. Wise words. Easier said than done, but still so powerful.

Sasha Plavsic: Easier said than done.

The Challenge of Balancing Motherhood and Entrepreneurship

Megan Bruneau: Yes. As you know, on this podcast, we talk about failure, we talk about challenges. And I know off-air, we talked about some of the challenges that you’ve struggled with as a woman in this role, balancing many different hats. I’m wondering if maybe we can go there for a few moments.

Sasha Plavsic: Absolutely. Well, I think you heard that I was able to work in the day and come home and work from 8 p.m. to 1 a.m., and I was 30. And you can do that in your 20s and your 30s and maybe exercise in between. I even read about other founders or high-level executives that are doing that. And you can, and it’s a great time to do it.

When I approached my mid-30s, I was getting married and I decided that I did want to have children. The business was still in a really small, infantile stage, but because of that, I was doing quite a bit of the work and still working very late and all the time. If I look back, I worked all the time. It was like the swimming; it was consistent. Just get there and go and keep working and keep driving.

And having children… anything that you think you know about yourself gets thrown out the window, usually, when a kid comes along. I think they’re the greatest teachers. I think it is my biggest area of failure in my life, in how to do that well, to be emotionally present when you’re tired from work. Work to me is easy because, for the most part, you’re dealing with rational people who, if they’re clear on where they’re going, are aligned to get to this goal and that goal. And as your team gets bigger, it gets even more outlined on where you’re going.

And I would say, with kids, there’s no control over any of that. I look at us as animals. We used to be all together. Women would be together supporting each other. You would have all this time with your baby. You’d nurse them for three years or whatever it was. They were always on you. We’ve become socialized and more sophisticated, but those innate instincts—a baby is still going to be looking for some of those instincts, I think. And when you’re working as a woman, you can carry less feminine energy. So I think it’s really challenging to find a way to turn off part of that and come into your feminine more. That was—and I am still—struggling with that. I mean, I think that’s a learning lesson. To me, it’s like when you’re at work, you’re at work—which has worked the best. And when I’m with my kids, I’m with my kids. The crossover… because even when I travel for work, a lot of people are like, “Oh, are you going to bring your kids?” And I’m like, “No, I’m not.”

The “Lose-Lose” Pressure on Mothers

Megan Bruneau: And how do you make sense of that being that much more challenging for women? Because I think it is, to have to kind of say, “Okay, I have to fully occupy this role of mother, and I have to fully occupy this role of CEO or founder or head of whatever.”

Sasha Plavsic: Or a single mom working three jobs. Is it different pressures? I would actually argue it could be similar if you’re holding down three jobs and just trying to get through with your kids.

Megan Bruneau: Right.

Sasha Plavsic: I would say that, as I kind of mentioned to you earlier, essentially it can be a lose-lose. Because as a stay-at-home mom, you’re looked at as, “Oh, they’re a stay-at-home mom. They’re not really engaged in providing for the family,” which women didn’t have to do as much before. And then if you are a workaholic mom or a mom that’s working, you are an elusive mom with your kids, and you’re not there as much with them. There are some people that do it really well. I would say many of those people, some of the people that do it really well without help are superhuman. And many of the people that do it well are doing it with help.

Megan Bruneau: Yes. Or not very happy, on the verge of burning out, on the verge of a breakdown. Looks like they’re supermom and looks like they’re super career woman, and behind the scenes are just barely surviving.

Making Conscious Choices and Prioritizing Moments

Sasha Plavsic: Barely surviving, barely keeping the head above water. That’s a really common feeling. Looking back on it now, I have a ten-year-old and a six-year-old. I’ve maybe got a good five years left with my oldest before she won’t spend a lot of time with me. I think I read some stat like by the time they’re ten, you’ve spent 75% of the time that you will spend with them in their entire life. So I missed a lot.

Although that being said, when COVID happened, there were certain things that were silver linings, to spend more time together. I hate to say that about something that was so horrible for the world, but it did allow a slowdown, a reconnect. We met our neighbors that we’d only waved to, and now we were able to talk to them. And there were moments of being able to just live in the moment and enjoy those moments, which I think is really important. Because when you’re working and building this, especially if you’re a mom and your kids are growing… all my friends now, it feels like we’re just going from activities and doing all these things.

And ultimately, how do you create those moments with your kids? Because if I have an impact from a work trip two weeks ago… part of me is like, it drives me crazy, but I know that I’ll have to deal with it when there’s a little more time. Now, I know on the weekend I’m going to have some more time. So part of me is like, what’s more important? Do I want to have everything perfect in here and unpacked? Or do I want to make sure that I’m making whatever I need to make with them at dinner and sit down or read them their book at bedtime? And you have to make certain choices. I used to be so scattered, thinking, “This needs to be done, that needs to be done.” And now I know, even here, the house is like a bomb went off. And it’s like, okay, I’m going to bring some help in. I have some people who can help me. I’m going to book off these days, and we’re going to get through it and organize things, because with a clean mind or a clean office, you can think more clearly. But yeah, you pick and choose what’s more important at the time. And I guarantee you’ll never regret picking your family or your kids over some other opportunity in business or work, because you won’t remember that one. You’ll remember the other one.

Internalizing Societal Expectations and the Role of Self-Compassion

Megan Bruneau: And I think what’s so important, especially for women—I mean, for anyone really—is bringing in that self-compassion and realistic expectations. Because otherwise, we do fall victim to, “I have to be supermom and I have to be super career woman, and I have to be thin and beautiful and young forever,” and all that kind of stuff. And so we’re really prone to feeling shame or guilt if we’re not constantly checking that our expectations are realistic and we’re not internalizing the societal expectation that we be all of those things.

Sasha Plavsic: Yeah, I think shame… I mean, guilt is still very prevalent for me, weekly. And it’s just… I think everybody always hears this, but you do the best you can.

Navigating Guilt Through Connection

Megan Bruneau: How do you work through that and mitigate the guilt, at least when you become aware of it, to free yourself of it? Because I think in this moment, you can recognize it’s probably not always coming from a productive place.

Sasha Plavsic: Right. Well, before I’d feel guilty if I was away from work because I was away from them. And now I feel guilty because they will tell me things and say things to me that can be even a little bit mean, to make me feel bad, because that’s also just a way of them expressing their feelings, which is totally… you know, I’ve got to listen to that, too.

I would say, I listen now. And if they feel a certain way, I will listen to it. We find ways to connect. Do we have special time together? So I think to me, if I’m feeling guilty, we talk about things together if I can. But it’s usually if I can sense them feeling more withdrawn or upset because I was away, for example. So what do we do to reconnect? How do we find that time? And you just, again, find the moments that you’re trying to create with them that make them feel safe, make them feel heard.

And then for myself… the guilt is mostly there. Some people may have guilt if they don’t exercise and things like that. I’m actually just like, “Oh, that’s okay, I’m going to miss this week and it’s going to be okay.” And I may not feel as great, but I don’t know, finding that balance. It’s a balance you’re constantly seeking. It’s not that you’re there forever standing on a rope; you’ll fall off a lot, probably every ten seconds. So what does it look like? And I think when you feel good again in your mind, in your body… things are always going to be a bit of a roller coaster. And where can you feel comfortable in that?

Delegating and Letting Go as a Leader

Megan Bruneau: It sounds like you are very clear in your mind, like your priority is your family. And yes, if exercise can fit in there, great. But if you have to skip it, that’s okay. There’s not guilt there. How about with work? Do you struggle with, “Okay, if I’m putting too much time into my family, now I’m feeling like I’m not a present enough leader”?

Sasha Plavsic: Yes. And that for me has changed a lot in the last three years, even the last five. I used to run half the business five years ago and then have slowly hired people to take over many parts. The one area I’m still really knee-deep in is product and product development. And there are other areas that people feel they want me to weigh in on. And there are many areas I don’t weigh in on where I don’t think that I’m needed anymore. Sometimes it’s nice to have a conversation about many things, but you kind of just have to hire the right people that you trust and take your hands off. Obviously, there are certain areas that need to be guided, wherever your heart soars in your business. And that’s different for different founders. It’s important, I think, to still give people direction in that way.

But yeah, in the summer, for example, the last two summers, I only worked two half-days a week. There were a lot of people that didn’t like that. But I kind of said, “You know what? We don’t need to call a 20-person meeting for this little thing. Just text me and send the minutes.” And where are the real critical meetings that we need to be? Because we are more of a remote company—there is a bit of a hybrid situation coming up with some of the locations we have where people are going in a few days a week, but ultimately we’re still remote. So how do we manage our time? You know, everybody’s sitting in Zooms and all the meetings. How much more efficient can we be in managing our time?

The Two Burnout Moments That Changed Everything

Megan Bruneau: Exactly. Does everything have to be a meeting? Can this be an email? Can this be a text? Does everybody need to be on this call? So it sounds like, Sasha, you had a realization somewhere along the way, “I don’t want to continue killing myself like this. I don’t want to keep burning out, spending all of my time on the business.” I mean, it sounds like you built and grew the business and got married and had two kids in the course of ten, fifteen years. So that’s a lot of life changes, a lot of responsibilities you were taking on. What happened for you or what caused that awareness that was like, “I don’t want to keep doing it at this pace anymore”?

Sasha Plavsic: Well, there were two points of inflection, I would say. My first kid was born in 2015, and the second one was in 2019. And the serious growth of the business was probably from 2018 to 2021. But I would say the first point was, I thought I could do everything. I did not have a lot of financial means or resources. After the first kid was born, I’d lost a parent, there was a whole bunch of stuff going on, and I was so burned out. And I think probably suffering from some postpartum depression, that I was sad all the time. And my husband traveled eight months a year for work. And I remember I was like, “I’m going to close the doors of the business. I can’t do this.” I was pretty much dying inside and thinking I didn’t need a lot of help. And that was really a realization of, “I cannot do this alone. I cannot do this on my own.”

And I actually hired a CEO who came in. I gave her some shares and the opportunity to earn more. And it was really her and I that built that business together. And she just retired last fall. And we have a new CEO that just started. But it was so nice to have a partner who was a mother, who was older than me, and who I really connected with in a kismet type of way, where her strengths and my strengths were different. And it was a great relationship and a great decision to not be a CEO. There are a lot of founders, I think, that want to be a CEO. And unless you understand how to run a business, especially once you hit the five, ten million… even more than that, like anything between 10 and 30 million, you should be pulling somebody else in who’s going to know how to scale that if it’s not easy and you haven’t done it before. And where are you best used? So that was one decision that was made that was really good, when I was about to shut everything down.

I would say the second time was when I sold most of the business. I still own a third of what I had, but I sold a lot of it. And that was in 2022. I think it was towards the back half of 2021. And I was working very hard. The business had scaled—it went from like 5 million to 16 to 36 to 100. It was just this fast trajectory over a couple of years. And I had a baby during all that time. And I remember it was just this… you’re running on adrenaline. Oh, and COVID was happening. So there was all this adrenaline pumping. And when I decided to move back to Canada to be closer to family and maybe even just take a little break, it was still during COVID, and we ended up staying, for now at least. But my kidneys started shutting down.

The Physical Breaking Point

Megan Bruneau: Oh my gosh, Sasha.

Sasha Plavsic: So there can be a mental aspect to when you know you’re at your limit, and then there can be a physical one. And to be honest, I had all this success—I had struggled financially for so long that I finally reached a point where I didn’t need to worry about it—and I was sitting in bed. We were living in Whistler for those first six months, and I was so sick. I was on opioids. It was a crazy time, trying to show up to some meetings, thinking that I needed to maybe try and go somewhere. I didn’t know what to do. And finally, we figured out where the infection was. The medical system up here is not good. It’s really fallen off a cliff.

I know we’ve talked about that, but it was a real shocker. Medical care is important, and yes, you do need to pay for it in the U.S., but if you figure out how to do that successfully, you can have good coverage where you get better care.

Megan Bruneau: Yeah.

Sasha Plavsic: Here, it’s been interesting. And I would say it could have helped me. So it was a moment of, “Okay, I got to figure this out because actually nothing else matters.” Because if I don’t have my health, I can’t look after anybody. I can’t do anything. I didn’t even want to tell anybody at work to freak them out. I thought, “I need to be there.”

Setting Boundaries and Asking for Help

Sasha Plavsic: So it was a moment of, “I actually need to set boundaries.” Yes. So I hired an executive coach, and there was a lot of emotion that came out. There was so much stress. I think for ten years, I was really the matriarch of the family, supporting my mom and my brother, and with my dad having been gone, there was quite a bit of pressure to make sure that everyone was okay. And I put that on myself. And I think I realized I don’t need to carry that anymore. But it actually took me two and a half years to recover.

Megan Bruneau: Wow. Oh my gosh, Sasha. So that was ultimately what led you to sell the business, or sell a chunk of it? Was it kind of like, “I’m in this place where I need to set boundaries and make changes in my life, and I need to offload some of this responsibility”?

The Decision to Sell

Sasha Plavsic: For a few reasons. We had reached a number that was very desirable to go to market at: 100 million. For me personally, I was a little bit worried about COVID and what was happening because we were still in the thick of it, and for some reason my instinct told me, “Now is the time.” Did I want to do it? I actually had reservations about that because I felt like we were just getting going. But in my gut I was like, “Now is the time.” And if I look at what’s happening in the M&A market and our industry right now, it was the time. That was a good time.

Reflections and What She’d Do Differently

Megan Bruneau:Sasha Plavsic, founder of ILIA Beauty, on defining “clean beauty” and her entrepreneurial story of how burnout nearly took her life.Looking back at your journey, is there anything you would have done differently? In retrospect, maybe, “I should have done that,” or “shouldn’t have done this”?

Sasha Plavsic: I think just maybe not have been so hard on myself and thinking that I needed to be so tough and carry it all. I definitely can be a bit of a bulldozer and just get my mind on something and push really hard. I was saying to someone, if you think of an icy lake, even in Canada, that maybe has some soft spots… I’m on top of the lake now, and I can look into the softer spots and help and reach into the business when needed. Sometimes you need to jump in to help with something. But before, I was always at the bottom, stuck in the weeds and holding my breath. And I think if I could go back, I would have tapped that person on the shoulder at the bottom and said, “You need to go up for air. You don’t need to hold your breath. Just go up for air and know that that would have been okay.” Because it’s really easy to lose yourself in that. And again, everybody’s different, but mentally for me, I’m very strong, and physically I’m not. And I should have maybe paid a bit more attention to that.

How to Build Physical Resilience

Megan Bruneau: And so what would you have done differently to get strong physically?

Sasha Plavsic: I think I would have definitely taken better care of myself from a diet standpoint, exercise, and sleep. I mean, you have a baby, so those things are hard, but you lean on more people. You cut back on expenses and hire in different areas to ensure that if your adrenaline’s running high, you have to find ways to turn that off. And what does that look like? And generally, to me, it’s through diet, sleep, and exercise. I would even go for walks. We lived in Laguna Beach, and it was so great to walk the area. I’d listen to a podcast during that time, too, and it was my little moment. So finding an hour to yourself a day, that’s your moment, where you put a boundary around it—and that’s hard, I think—is a great way to start.

Learning to Let Go and Redefine Your Role

Megan Bruneau: Sasha Plavsic, founder of ILIA Beauty, on defining “clean beauty” and her entrepreneurial story of how burnout nearly took her life.What allowed for you to get to that point where you were like, “I’m going to bring somebody in here and consult with them rather than trying to do this all myself”?

Sasha Plavsic: I think knowing that I needed to not be so deep in the business, and not knowing how to *not* be so deep in the business. So I think it was learning to trust other people that we had hired to do the job and being able to step out in certain areas. Over the last three years, I have slowly suctioned myself out of the business where I’m still there as a presence, but I’m not in it at all in the same way that I was.

It’s hard because sometimes I get pulled into conversations and I’ll have to say, “Hey, I don’t have the context on this because I’m not as involved as we all know. I need a little bit more context.” So it’s a bit more of a vulnerable position to not know everything, but I have to also be okay with that because the decision is to be… now I maybe schedule most of my meetings Tuesday, Wednesdays, Thursdays. Mondays and Fridays have maybe one or two, or sometimes none, so I can get other things done or pick up my kids. You know, do things like that and then find ways to structure the days where they’re more controlled and there are more boundaries around my time.

And you do have to be vigilant in that. And I saw something, too, they were like, “Oh, the 5 AM Club.” It totally depends on who you are as a person. I would never want to get up at 5 a.m. to start my day. I know a lot of people that do, but I’m like, no, I want to read till 6:45 or 7, and then I’ll get my kids ready. We’re out the door at 8. Do what works for you. All these other things, even whatever I say, it may not be right for somebody. So you have to find what puts you in your rhythm. And you don’t have to slam more in. Actually, as you get older, as a woman, you don’t want to do a lot of cardio. Apparently, you want to do more strength training. I just started doing more strength training. I feel so much better.

Megan Bruneau: Yes.

Sasha Plavsic: More protein. There are all these things now that were not there ten years ago, where you can find ways to balance your system out more, to bring you to a more optimum level of being able to function with stress and everything else. And I mean, there’s the Huberman Lab podcast and all these other podcasts that go into that. And I would encourage people to listen and try some of those things that work for them. They’ll find out through trial and error.

Final Advice for Entrepreneurs

Megan Bruneau: Right. Yeah. Because like you said, if we don’t have our health, we don’t have anything else. Sasha, I want to be aware of your time because we’re just over 50 minutes, so thank you so much for everything today. I mean, what a beautiful, inspiring story. Before we wrap, is there anything else you want to share with aspiring entrepreneurs or women entrepreneurs? Any advice around persistence, being open to failure, coming back from failure, finding balance, or learning how to quiet that voice that’s judging you for not being a good enough mother or not being a good enough boss? Is there anything that still feels important for you to share on this platform?

Sasha Plavsic: I think it’s important to keep your eye on the long-term goal. And I would say to a lot of entrepreneurs looking to exit, who think that your life is solved and all your problems are solved… it actually usually just creates more. So where some things may be alleviated, like financial pressures, other things can be elevated. So what is… if you were to strip away everything from yourself—your business, your goals, all of it—what are you left with? And what brings you joy at a very base level? Because that truth is something that you can carry with you through any situation and you can always go back to. Because at the end of the day, you could lose everything, and a lot of people have. But what matters to you in your life and what is important? I think getting clear about some of your values that way is very important, not just for yourself, but for your business, because those values could be applied to your business and as a way to work with all the people you’re working with there. And that is truly, to me, what creates a beautiful momentum not just in life, but in work as well.

The Myth of the “Exit”

Megan Bruneau: Thank you so much for saying that. Not everyone who comes on this podcast has had an exit like you had. And to hear from someone who’s been there, who’s exited their company, made the money, checked the box, done the thing that we all aspire to do… We’re all told, “Oh, well, you’ll be happy when this happens or when that happens.” And I think especially in the States, there’s that capitalistic mentality of, “Oh, well, you have to make a bunch of money.” As women, it’s “or lose the weight, or get married, or have the baby,” or whatever it is. And people just keep going for whatever that next thing is that’s going to bring them that eternal happiness.

More and more and more. Exactly. And the reality is, as you said so beautifully, when you strip it all away, what are just the little things that bring you joy in life? Those moments of connection, moments of reflection, moments of intrigue or fun or play or whatever. That is such powerful advice, and I hope everyone keeps that in mind and doesn’t just work their life away thinking they’re going to reach eternal bliss once they sell their company, which is not the case.

Finding Beauty in Every Stage

Sasha Plavsic: No, it’s totally the biggest myth. And it’s interesting because people are like, “Oh, well, it’s easy for you to say you’re on the other side.” And it’s like, I am, and I can look back at the side that I was on before, and there are sweet moments everywhere. And people always say it’s about the journey. I remember I used to be like, “Yeah, right.” But it actually is. Some of those grinding moments in the business that almost killed me, there was something so powerful about them that I look back on and I’m like, “Oh, that was the best.”

And today there are different moments of that. But there’s beauty, I think, in all the different stages. And don’t underestimate the challenge of the stage and miss its beauty, because you may miss it one day.

Megan Bruneau: Exactly. Don’t rush through the stages, because they’re all magical in their different ways. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today, Sasha. It’s just been such a gift to speak with you.

Sasha Plavsic: Well, you were great. Thank you so much.

Megan Bruneau, M.A. Psych is a therapist, executive coach, and the founder of Off The Field Executive & Personal Coaching. She hosts The Failure Factor podcast featuring conversations with entrepreneurs about the setbacks that led to their success.